February 19, 2004


All this hooplah over Mel Gibson's film "The Passion of Christ" has got me stymied. What is this "collective guilt of the Jews" I keep hearing about?

Being brought up in a protestant Congregational church might have left me unworldly, but I doubt it. Before all this talk about Gibson's movie had started to make some waves I'd never heard of this "collective guilt." But, as best as I've been able to decifer: it stems from this passage in Mathew, chapter 27 (I'm an agnostic but I do read the Bible -- I likes t'be informed about stuff...):

19 While Pilate was seated on the judges' seat his wife sent him this message: "Do not have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."
20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabas to have Jesus executed.
21"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the Governor.
"Barabas!" they answered.
22 "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered "Crucify him!"
23 "Why? What crime has he commmitted?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibilty!"
25 All the people answered, "Let the blood be on us and our children!"
26 Then he released Barabas to them but he had Jesus flogged and handed him over to be crucified.

The first thing that this whole brew-hee-haw has brought to mind is that line from Kinky Freidman's song They Ain't Makin' Jews Like Jesus Anymore: "...You just wanna doodle a Christian girl and y'killed G-d's only son.." (to which Kinky sardonically replied: "We Jews believe it was Santa Claus that killed Jesus Christ..")

So my gut tells me that this whole "collective guilt" thing is on the minds of Jews, not Christians.
Take notr that it was the crowd that challenged "Let the blood be on us and our children," not the deciples; and it strikes me that the very idea of a "collective guilt" is a self-evidently un-Christian way of thinking.
(I'd love to hear some input from Slave and/or Daniel on these points!)

Take notes: To be Christian is to be Jewish first. Jesus' last meal was at the Last Supper a passover sadir. The blood of the lamb of G-d was meant to fullfill the covenant that Abraham (a righteous yet very all to humanly conflicted man) could not bring himself to fulfill by sacrificing his own son,
Calling the Gospels anti-Semetic -- to Christians -- is like calling G-d anti-Semitic.
We start at the same place and choose to accept, or not, what happened next.


Posted by Tuning Spork at February 19, 2004 11:44 PM

This requires a much lengthier response than I am prepared to give, but it is historically unlikely that Pilate was swayed by a crowd of Jews to do...anything. The biblical text was not written as an eyewitness account. It was written by a human being with his own agenda. The collective guilt of the Jews is not what the Jews feel but what the biblical text claims is their responsibility.

Hope that clears it up a little bit. It deserves a lengthier reply.

Posted by: Jennifer at February 20, 2004 12:35 PM

I agree with Jennifer, Spork. I don't think Jews feel "collective guilt" (I'd never heard the term until recently), but we share a collective memory of pogroms and persecution fueled, at least indirectly, by hatred of Christ-killers.

You're probably right -- it is almost certainly more on the minds of Jews than of Christians. But in the same way that racial bigotry tends to be more on the minds of blacks than whites. It affects them directly, and more often, so they perceive it and focus on it and dwell on it in a way that you and I can afford not to. Whether or not the Biblical account is accurate, Jews are very wary of suggestions of collective guilt and its historic consequences (i.e., punishment for the putative sins of the fathers).

It may be an un-Christian way of thinking, but I don't need to tell you that Christians (as well as all the rest of us) have not always acted in a Christian manner. And I think Christians themselves tend to be confused and conflicted about the whole thing. The Catholic Church has taken a conciliatory view in our lifetime, and maybe other churches have as well (which might explain your relative unfamiliarity with the concept of the Jews' collective guilt -- maybe you weren't taught it in your church). But every once in a while Jews still hear things that make them bristle a bit (in addition to the things that come out of Mel Gibson's father's mouth).

I was in church with my family a couple of Sundays ago -- as you know, my wife and daughters are not Jewish and I actually enjoy attending the family service at our Episcopal church; there are lots of families with small children making noise and running around, and the Rector (the main pastor) is a sweetheart of a guy whose sermons I love. Anyway, on this particular Sunday, the Rector was out of town and the Curate (the second in command minister) said something about how the Israelites killed Jesus. Well, my wife must have felt me stiffen a bit, because she put her hand on my leg and patted it to calm me.

I don't know if the Biblical account is accurate, but its consequences have been, if not a feeling of collective guilt, then a meting out of collective punishment. Jews wouldn't have as much of a problem with that account if more Christians throughout history had taken the view that it was just THOSE particular individuals, in THAT particular time, who were guilty, and just left it at that -- had not been inspired by the guilt of those people to visit horrors on their descendants.

If the idea of being forced to pay slavery reparations gets your hackles up, just imagine what 2,000 years of being murdered and hounded to the ends of the earth will do to a people's Weltanschauung (world view). We never forget anything . . . and it makes us very tired and cranky.


Posted by: Freedom's Slave at February 22, 2004 12:55 AM

Ahhhh, I find most of the comments on the killing of Jesus to be inacurrate at best. I find that Gibson did not do his job in exposing the truth of the final moments of Jesus. However, first I find that we must clear up secveral myths about Jesus that seem to be the current Judeo-christian norm which BTW is not biblical.

Is Jesus a Jew? Does the Bible call Jesus a Jew?
A resounding NO! Nowhere in the scriptures does God, the angels , nor even Jesus affirm that He is a Jew. First we must take history and apply it with truth. It is a historical fact that the word Jew is a fairly new word not much older than the late 1700's. The word "JEW" is an English word and not a Hebrew word. There is no "J" or "J" equivelant in the hebrew language. The letter "J" was invented by the French in the 1600's and given to the English at that time
The word was invented by Sheridan in 1775 in his play wereas he stated " I shall have the skin of a mummy and the beard of a Jew ( Iwe).

In all Biblical autographs of the true Bible there is not one word of "JEW" in any of these earlier Biblical autographs. The word "JEW" was added in the late 1700's to 1800's by Jews who by then controlled the majority of the printing presses and media in America. No person has ever seen this word Jew in any bibles before the 1800's.
The King James authorized version of 1611 had not one word of Jew in it!

Consequently we also find that historic record including the Jewish Almanac proves that the Jews went through numerous names changes troughout history. Even the Jews admit in their Almanac and other writtings that Jewrly evolved from Edom. Fact is there are Three Jewish Sects among Jews
Now Pharisees are one sect, Sadducees another,and another called Essenes. When Jesus spoke to the Paharisees and the Elders, or the Sadduces , He was in fact speaking to the Jews of then and today. The Jewish Almanac says that Pharisaism evolved to Rabbinsim which evolved to Judaism. So the Jews in fact are the Pharisees of Jesus time. Even the Jews acknowledge this fact!

Jesus denies to Pilate several times that he is in fact a Jew nor King of the Jews. Pilate knew Jesus denied this fact whenhe asked the final question "Art thou a King then?" If Jesus acknowledged and Pilate believed Jesus was a Jew, there would be no need for Pilate to ask the final question " Art thou a King then" because Pilate would have believed Jesus was a Jew and therfore King of the Jews. But Pilate knows Jesus NEVER accepted this mythical lie spread by the Pharistic Jews of His time.You may read all this in John18.

Jesus also acknowledges several times that it was the Jews to whom He was delivered to and thereby they who murdered Him. Jesus also admits that "His servants " were not present when He was crucified by the Jews.

John 18 :36 Jesus answered , My kinngdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world would not MY SERVANTS FIGHT that I NOT BE DELIVERED UNTO THE JEWS? but now my kingdom is not from hence."

Here Jesus clearly shows that He was in fact delivered unto the JEWS for crucifixtion. Note also thatJesus makes His claim that His kingdom is not of the JEWS ( i.e. hence meaning not the source of).

Note also that the Bible clearly indictates that the calling of Jesus a "JEW" is nothing more than and "accusation", not proven!

Matthew 27:37 " And set up over his head his ACCUSATION written. This is Jesus the king of the Jews."

Another anomally of Jesus being a Jew is the scripture below:

Titus 1:13-14 " This witness is true, Wherefore REBUKE THEM (jews) SHARPLY, that they ( jews) MAY be sound in the faith ( christianity) 14 Not giving heed (listening) to JEWISH FABLES ( myths), and commandments of men ( Judaism) that pervert the truth ( Biblical word of God)"

Here we see a Bible commandment that commands christians to NEVER listen to the Jew. If Jesus is a Jew then this same commandment tells us not to listen to this savior who you claim is Jew. It is a sin to call Jesus a Jew even after He spent so much time denying this Judeo myth.

Know also that the bible makes clear referance as to whom murdered Jesus who was God in the flesh.

THESSALONIANS 2:15 "You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches ( christians) suffered from the JEWS, 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and drove us ( true Isreal-not Jews) out."

Here we see a Biblical fact that accuses the Jews of killing the Lord Jesus.

One must know history in that the state of Isreal is fairly new. The Jews of Judea stole the name of Israel and applied it to their country in 1948. Because they call themselves Israel does not make it so.

God told Jacob/Israel that he would leave his name as a curse unto those who stole his birthright name, and that Jacob/Israel was to have a new name. Therefore the Jews have the cursed name of Israel to prove that they are in fact NOT true Israel. God then gave Israel a new name trough ISACC which his children were then known as ISAACS SONS or ISAACIANS, later know as SONS OF ISACC or SACCSONS, which was perverted to SAXONS by Jewish intervention and printing presses and media in the late 1700's. Many referances prove that SACCSONS and SAXONS are one and the same. This is the first new name God gave to Israel whose name was stolen by the Jews.
Later we see that Israel was dispersed ( chased ) into the CACACUS mountains were the Jews mocked them and called them CACASIANS. This was the second name that God gave to His people. Keep in mind that the words SACCSONS ( SAXONS) and Caucasian are older than the word "JEW" and can be historically traced back to 2000 years whereas the word "JEW" can only be traced back about a little over 300 years since the invention of the word.

Note also the Bible speaks of Israel fighting the Jews. If the Jews are Israel, then how is it that Israel fought the Jews? See how they have mislead the world.

I am angry that Gibson did not tell the biblical truth and show by scripture that it was in fact the Jews who murdered Jesus the Christ and that not ONE of Jesus' servants were present. If they were, they would have fought the Jews to protect Jesus from this deliverance to the Jews as the scripture point out

Jesus is not a Jew ,nor King of the Jews. Nor did anyone but the Jews crucify the Jesus who was God in the flesh.

Lastly, Jesus also shows His entire mission in one statement : " I have come for none other than the lost tribes of Israel" whcih the Bible clearly gives geographical evidence that Isreal ended up in the British Isles ( O Israel in the Isles of the sea). If you are not Israel, then were does that leave you? You must be grafted through the vine which is Isreal ( SACCSON/ CAUCASION) who is ISRAEL.

Posted by: Bronson at August 15, 2004 03:09 PM
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